Reference: Four Aims of Human Life
=================================
                   by <mvishnu@csg.uwaterloo.ca>
                  ============================

M. Vishnu from Waterloo has put forward for discussion 
some postings from SCI which are rather activist in their 
interpretation of ancient Indian texts and are notable for 
their selectivity in not mentioning the texts that state the 
contrary. These texts, by and large, put down women and 
the darker-skinned races like ours and take the cake for 
bigotry. The result of the postings would be to elevate in 
importance those texts that insult us so severely and 
ascribe to us an unhappy, low-caste, insignificant estate. 
These texts might have represented Indian 'wisdom' at 
one time, but they are no longer accepted as so today by 
many 'Indians'. No Tamil, and indeed no woman, can 
accept them with self-respect.

The postings from SCI try to point a rosy picture of what 
the ancient texts try to communicate to us. In particular:

1.Trivarga
=========
It is held that of the four-fold aim of life (it is, really 
three-fold, the trivarga, the fourth, moksha, originally a 
result of practising the first 3, having been added by 
later texts) Dharma must temper the others. 

This is an activist interpretation of Dharma. It is only the 
infamous Manu (and the subsequent Dharmsastras) that 
held this to be so. On the other hand, Kautiliya in his 
Arthasastra, says that artha is the highest, since dharma 
and kama arise from artha. Vatsyayana is explicit and 
says that artha is the most important for a king and kama 
for a public woman. Indeed, the importance of kama is 
stressed by Bhima as a reply to YudhisthiraÕs question as 
to which is foremost: 

     "One without Kama never wishes for Artha. One 
     without Kama never wishes for Dharma. One who is 
     destitute of Kama can never feel and wish. For this 
     reason, Kama is the foremost of the three . Everything 
     is pervaded by the principle of Kama. a man outside 
     the pale of Kama never is, was or will be seen in this 
     world. As butter represents the essence of curds, even 
     so is Kama the essence of artha and dharma. Oil is 
     better than oil seeds. Ghee is better than sour milk. 
     Flowers and fruits are better than wood. Just so Kama 
     is better than Dharma and Artha. As nectar is 
     extracted from flowers, so is Kama to be extracted
     from these two. Kama is the parent of Dharma and 
     Artha. Kama is the soul of these two". (Mahabharata, 
     Santi Parvan, 167).

Besides, Dharma is much more than doing good. It implies 
upholding the social order, including respecting the 
superior castes, not crossing caste-lines in employment 
and many other things that many of today are not ready 
to do. We in fact reject Dharma in this most important 
aspect of its.

That the trivarga is no longer accepted by many is 
underscored by the subsequent quotations from SCI 
where worldly wealth - a form of Artha - is rejected by 
the religiously inclined outpourings of the Subhashitaani.


2. The Purushamedha
====================
The quotations from SCI describe Purusha sacrifice in 
rather activist and cosmic terms. But what do the ancient 
texts really say? The Purushamedha (described as 
dreadful by Professor R. C. Majumdar of the College of 
Indology in his book "Ancient India") was a ritual in 
which a human being was sacrificed instead of a horse as 
in the Asvamedha. The ceremonies performed were very 
similar in the two cases. Just as the horse was let loose 
for about a year, the human victim was allowed to enjoy 
himself for the same period, during which all his wishes 
were satisfied. The queen behaved with the human 
victim in the Purushamedha, exactly as she did with the 
horse in the Asvamedha sacrifice. (See also Brihad-
Aranyaka Upanishad 1.3.22; 3.9.8-9. Chandogya 
Upanishad 1.2.10-12 and 6.8.1). 

The following description of the Asvamedha, as given in 
the Shatapatha Brahmana  13.5.2.1-10 (translation from 
Wendy Doniger OÕFlaherty, "Textual Sources for the Study 
of Hinduism", Totowa, N.J.: Barnes & Noble,  1988) will 
reveal what the Chief Queen had to undergo in the 
Purushamedha:

    "A cloth, an upper cloth, and gold is what they spread  
     out for the horse, and on that they 'quiet' him. When 
     the sacrificial animal has been quieted,  the (king's) 
     wives come up with water for washing the feet - four 
     wives and a maiden as the fifth, and four hundred 
     women attendants. When the water for washing the 
     feet is ready, they make the chief queen (Mahishi) lie 
     down next to the horse, and they cover the two of 
     them up with the upper cloth as they say the verse, 
     'Let the two of us cover ourselves in the world of 
     heaven', for the world of heaven is where they  'quiet' 
     the sacrificial animal. Then they draw out the penis of 
     the horse and place it in the vagina of the chief queen, 
     while she says, 'May the vigorous virile male, the
     layer of seed, lay the seed'; this she says for sexual 
     intercourse.
    "While they are lying there, the sacrificer insults the 
     horse by saying, 'Lift up her thighs and put it in her 
     rectum.' No one insults the sacrificer back, lest there 
     should be someone to act as a rival against the 
     sacrificer.
    "The officiant (Adhvaryu) then insults the maiden: 
     'Hey, maiden, hey maiden, the little female bird ....' 
     and she insults him back: 'Hey, officiant, he officiant,
     that .little bird..'
    "And then the overseer (Brahman) insults the chief 
     queen: 'Hey, chief queen, her chief queen, your mother 
     and father climb to the top of the tree ...' She  has as 
     her attendants a hundred daughters of the kings; they 
     insult the overseer in return: 'Hey overseer, her 
     overseer, your mother and your father play in the top 
     of the tree ...'
    "Then the cantor (Udgatri) insults the king's favourite 
     wife: 'Hey, favourite, hey, favourite, raise her up 
     erect...' She has as her attendants a hundred royal 
     women; they insult the cantor in turn: 'Hey ,cantor, 
      her, cantor,  raise him up erect...'
    "Then the invoker (Hotri) insults the rejected wife: 
     'Hey, rejected wife, hey, rejected wife, when inside her 
     tight crack ...' she has as her attendants a hundred 
     daughters of bards and village headmen; they insult 
     the invoker in return: 'Hey, invoker, hey, invoker, 
     when the gods see that miserable penis..'
     "Then the carver (Ksatri) insults the fourth wife: 'Hey, 
     hey, fourth wife, when the deer eats the barley, (the 
     farmer) does not hope to nourish the animal...' She has 
     as her attendants a hundred daughters of carvers and 
     charioteers; they insult the carver in return: 'Hey 
     carver, hey, carver, when the deer eats  the barley, 
     (the farmer) does not hope to nourish the animal...'
     "These insulting speeches are for all kinds of 
     attainment, for through the horse sacrifice all desires 
     are achieved. Thinking, 'With all kinds of speech we 
     will achieve all kinds of desires', they make the chief 
     queen get up. Then the women walk back the way
     they came, and the others utter at the end a sweet
     smelling verse, the verse that begins, 'I praise
     Dadhikravan.'
    "For the life-span and the gods go out of those who 
     speak impure speech in the sacrifice. Thus they purify 
     their speech to keep the gods from going out of the 
     sacrifice."

3. The Creative Force of Indra and Honouring Women
================================================
Again examine what is cosmically and innocently  
described in the SCI quotation as the creative action 
centred in Indra and compare with what we read of 
Indra in Ramayana, I, 48, as quoted by Sir Richard F. 
Burton:

     "Indra, the king of the gods in early Hinduism, had a ...
      penchant [for women]. Nether his haggard  but
      faithful wife, Indrani,  nor his host of heavenly 
      apsaras (sensuous divine damsels) could keep him
      from these diversions. This divine profligate could 
      appear.anywhere and assume the disguise most likely 
      to cause beautiful damsels to surrender their charms 
      to him. This is not to say that all the women were 
      duped by this libertine. Ahalya clearly recognizes the
      king of the gods with all his trappings and finds him a
      rather  refreshing change from her husband. She 
     welcomes him and indeed encourages her lover to
     continue these escapades with her.
     Indra was not very overjoyed 
     when he found that Nahusa, a temporary king of the 
     gods, was enjoying the charms of his own wife. With 
     righteous indignation he killed the violator of his own 
     marriage bed."

Then the SCI quotation goes on to give: 

>4.This one is appropriate for the recent spate of MC >views on the net:
>
>Yetra naryastu pujyante, ramante tatra devataha
>Yetritastu na pujyante, sarvastatra phalah nishkriyah

>A crude translation:

>Where women are revered, there the Gods do reside, >Where they are not, any
work that is undertaken ends >in dismal failure.

To understand which place this is where the gods are said 
to reside, we need to read the Brhadaranayaka Upanishad 
VI, 4:2-3:

     "Prajapati (the Lord of Creation) thought to himself: 
     'Let me provide the firm foundation.' So he created 
     woman. When he created her, he honoured her below. 
     Therefore one should honor woman below. He 
     stretched out for himself that stone which projects(the
     Siva lingam). With that he impregnated her. Her lap is 
     a sacrificial alter; her hairs the sacrificial grass; her 
     skin, the soma-press. The two lips of the yoni are the 
     fire in the middle. Verily, indeed, as great as is the 
     world of the person who performs the vajapeya 
     sacrifice (the drink of strength), just as great is the 
     world of him who practices sexual intercourse    
     knowing this. He takes the good deeds of women to 
     himself. But      he who practises sexual intercourse
     without knowing  this - women take his good deeds
      for themselves."

4. The Status and Goodness of Women
==================================
This brings us to the SCI quotations on the noble role of 
women in teaching patience etc. I will give some 
quotations from some of the great masters on their 
opinion of women:

i. Manu: 
--------
II. 213: It is the nature of women to seduce men in this 
     world; for that reason the wise are never unguarded
     in the company of females.
......
IX. 2: Day and night women must be kept in 
.....dependence by the males of their families, and if they 
.....attach themselves to sensual enjoyments, they must be 
.....kept under ones control.
IX. 3:  Her father protects her in childhood, her husband 
.....protects her in youth and her sons protect her in old 
.....age; a woman is never fit for independence.
.......
IX.12: Women confined in the house under trustworthy 
.....and obedient servants, are not well guarded; but those 
.....who of their own accord keep guard over themselves, 
.....are well guarded.
IX.13: Drinking spirituous liquor, associating with wicked 
.....people, separation from the husband, rambling abroad, 
.....sleeping at unseasonable hours, and dwelling in other 
.....menÕs houses, are the six causes of the ruin of women.
IX: 14: Women do not care for beauty, nor is their 
.....attention fixed on age; thinking 'It is enough that he is 
.....a man', they give themselves to the handsome and the 
.....ugly.
IX.15: Through their passion for men, through their 
.....mutable temper, through their natural heartlessness, 
.....they become disloyal towards their husbands, however 
.....carefully they may be guarded in this world.
IX. 16: Knowing their disposition, which the Lord of 
.....creatures laid in them at creation, to be such, every 
.....man should most strenuously exert himself to guard 
.....them.
IX.17: When creating them Manu allotted to women a 
.....love of their bed, of their seat and of ornament, impure 
.....desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice and bad conduct.
IX.18: For women no sacramental rite is performed with 
.....sacred texts, thus the law is settled; women who are 
.....destitute of strength and destitute of the knowledge of 
.....Vedic texts are as impure as falsehood itself, that is a 
.....fixed rule.

ii.Vatsyayana:
---------------
"Her father-in-law and mother-in-law she should treat as 
.....they deserve, always remaining dependent on their 
.....will, never contradicting them, speaking to them in few 
.....and not harsh words, not laughing loudly in their 
.....presence and acting with their friends and enemies as 
.....with her own. When the husband is away, she should 
.....sleep with the elder women, avoid the abode of her 
.....relations except on occasions of joy and sorrow and 
.....even then be accompanied by her husbandÕs servants 
.....and not remain there for long. When he returns, she 
.....should meet him in ordinary clothes so that he might 
.....know how she has lived in his absence.
........
......As a general rule, a woman falls in love with every 
.....handsome man she sees and so does every man at the 
.....sight of a beautiful woman, but frequently they do not 
.....take any further steps owing to various considerations. 
.....A woman loves without consideration of right or wrong 
.....and does not try to gain over a man simply for the 
.....attainment of some particular purpose. Moreover, 
.....when a man first makes up to her she naturally 
.....shrinks from him, even though she may be willing to 
.....unite with him. But when the attempts to gain her are 
.....repeated and renewed, she at last consents. But with a 
.....man, even though he may have begun to love, he 
.....conquers his feelings from a regard for morality and 
.....wisdom, and although his thoughts are often on the 
.....woman, he does not yield, even though an attempt be 
.....made to gain him over."

iii.Aitareya Brahmana
-----------------------
 .."a daughter is misery."

iv.  Garuda Purana, Section 114
---------------------------------
"When there is no opportunity; or no private place; or no 
.....man who wants her - only then do women remain 
.....chaste wives. She may serve the bed of one man 
.....always,  but in her mind she is pleasuring another; 
.....when a woman cannot get other men, she is true to he 
.....husband,  The things that a mother does in secret when 
.....she is mad with passion - those things should not be 
.....imagined by her sons, lest they conceive ideas 
.....incompatible with their belief in her good character ........A father
protects her when she is a little girl; her 
.....husband protects her when she is a young woman; and 
.....her son protects her in her old age;  a woman should 
.....never be independent. a man may abandon a barren 
.....wife in the eight year, and he may leave in the ninth 
.....year a woman whose children die; in the eleventh year 
.....he may abandon wife who bears him only daughter; 
.....and he may immediately abandon a woman who says 
.....unpleasant things...".

5. The Sweetest Language
=======================
The SCI Quotations claims Sanskrit to be the sweetest 
.language.. This reminds me of the acute observations of 
the Arab writer Alberuni on India, quoted by Professor 
R. C. Majumdar: 

....."According to their belief, there is no 
.....other country on earth but theirs, and no created 
.....beings besides them have any knowledge of science 
.....whatsoever. Their haughtiness is such that if you tell 
.....them of any science or scholar in Khurasan and Persis, 
.....they will think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. 
.....If they travelled and mixed with other nations, they 
.....would soon change their mind, for their ancestors were 
.....not as narrow-minded as the present generation is".



15 November, 1990.


REPLY FROM VISHNU
Subj:   SCI Postings by M.Vishnu

Return-path: <mvishnu@csg.uwaterloo.ca>

I read the article by Jeevan Hoole regarding Hinduism.  He made the same
mistake in his analysis as many other members of the world's monotheistic
religions, which has
one founder and one authoratative scripture and thus one point of view
regarding Truth.

In that respect Hinduism should be regarded as many religions instead of one.
It would be a mistake to quote from an Indian text and assume that that
represent the views of all the Hindus.  Different Hindus have different
ideas about the Truth.
Infact the Hinduism of the South, as formulated by the Bhakti movements
is very critical of the Vedic sacrifices and emphasizes Vegetariansm and
non-killing.  It would be wrong to quote from Laws of Manu and say that that's
Hinduism.  There are many law books like that of Manu in India, one for
each region and valid for certain period of time. Even the four aims of
life as I quoted is restricted to  Aryan north India.

According the Tamil Shaivaite religion, one is urged to
remain a householder throughout one's life.  Regarding the ill-treatment
of women, no one is guiltier than the authors and members of the great
monotheistic religions (Islam, for example).

Caste system is regarded as a neagtive aspect of Hinduism.  One should also
look at the positive side of Hinduism as well.  Hinduism has been a very
tolerant religion accomodating a variety of belief and catering people
of different mental abilities.  It ranges from simple village temple
worship of local deities to highly sophisticated philosophy.

Thank you for your reply,






MY REJOINDER
=============================






RERENCE: Ancient India Texts

In his reply to my earlier posting on the ancient texts of India, 
M. Vishnu has said that Hinduism is many religions and that 
the South Indian version is different and does not hold on to 
Vedic ideals.

I am afraid, however, that this is not borne out by facts, as 
pointed out by Mr. Gopal.  It is true that there is no uniformity 
of belief or thought among Hindus. But, there is a common core 
of belief that is common to all.  The Encyclopedia Britannica 
(Vol. 20, 15th edn, Chicago, 1989, pp. 581ff) gives the following 
common characteristics of Hindu belief:


      i. Authority of the Veda and the Brahman class
      ii. Doctrine of Atman-Brahman
      iii. Ahimsa 
      iv. Doctrine of transmigration and karmas
      v. Istadeva
      vi. Ashramas

On page 592, it goes on, (as roughly transcribed by me):

      Since the 5th century B.C. the Vedas have been considered 
      the creation of neither human nor god, rather eternal truth.

      Directly revealed to rishi's who transcribed it into the most

      perfect human language, Sanskrit. Religion of Vedic texts,

      revolving around rituals of fire sacrifice, has been eclipsed
      by Hindu doctrines and practices, but the absolute

                                                           ---------------
      authority and sacredness of the Veda remains a central
      ---------------------------------------------------------
      tenet of virtually all Hindu sects and tradition. Even today
      ------------------------------------------------------------
      it is memorized and recited as a religions act of great merit.
      ------------------------------------------------------------

The Sanskrit quotations in SCI and the hold that the language 
has over those who take pleasure in quoting in it, merely 
proves this. What gives the divergence is the Istadeva which is 
perhaps what is confusing Vishnu. All scholars whom I have 
consulted through their writings agree that the Vedas are 
indeed held in veneration by all Hindus. Even those who 
expounded Saiva Siddhanta were preoccupied with interpreting 
the Vedic religion - the ideas of Advaita, oneness, 
inseparability etc. arise from the preceding era, particulalrly, 
the Upanishads. For instance, the Upanishads, held as 
authoritative by many, has this to say: 

     "Hence what is set forth in the Vedas - that is true ! Upon
      what is told in the Vedas - upon that wise men live their
      life. Therefore a Brahman should not study what is 
      nonvedic. This should be the purpose". Maitiri 
      Upanishad 7.10.

     (.. after declaring the mystic doctrine) "Austerity (tapas),

      restraint (dama) and work (karman) are the foundations of
      it [i.e., the mystic doctrine] The Vedas are all its limbs. 
      Truth is its abode."  Kena Upanishad, 33.

Moreover, the person whom the Tamils call "Adhi Shankarar", 
spent his whole life interpreting the Vedas in his Vedanta 
Sutras, as also did  Ramanuja. ManikkavaccakarÕs Tiruvacagam 
(Translated by C. V. Pope, Tiruvacagam, p. 5) shows the belief 
that getting rid of Karma was urgent, not only to get out of the 
cycle of births and deaths, but also from the tangled web of 
caste. This again shows the acceptance of caste and the 
continuity with the ancient texts.

Even the famous Thirumoolar in his Thirumandiram has

                           ------------------------------------
emphasized the authority of the Vedas: 
 
     "The Agama (i.e. Saiva canon), as much as the Veda, is truly


-------------------------------
     word of God".
    -------------

Besides, if Manu applied only to a part of India at a different 
time as Vishnu claims, why is it that:

1. Why did Arumuga Navalar, accepted by many in Jaffna as a 
great leader, criticise our Brahmins for not knowing the Vedas 
and bring in well-versed ones from India.?

2. Why are our lavatories constructed according to the precepts 
of Manu ?

3. Why do we wash our backs with our left hand as 
commanded by Manu ?

4. Why do our parents get upset when their daughters fall 
asleep during the day, crack their knuckles or laugh loudly ? Is
 it not because Manu has explicitly told us not to do so ? And
because Manu states that a girl who sleeps in the day is not be 
married ?

5. Why are our temples constructed with a sanctum and a 
sanctum sanctorum as prescribed in the ancient texts and 
demanded by Navalar so as to adhere to Brahmanical
orthodoxy? Why can the non-Brahmin not enter the sanctum-
sanctorum ? Why were the low-caste not able to enter our 
temples until recently ? 

6. Why do we call the temple priest Aiyah ?

7. Why have we moved away from a priestless wedding to the 
point where we will not contemplate a wedding without the 
Aiyer ? Why do we go round the fire at the wedding if we do 
not believe in the Brahmanical religion ? Is it not because of 
what has been termed the tendency of the lower castes to 
emulate the ways of the superior castes so as to move up the 
ladder towards that high status given by the ancient texts ?

8. Why do we not marry outside our castes ? Is it not because 
of the commands of Manu ? Has our caste system got nothing to 
do with the North Indians and brahmanical religion ?

9. Why have our Amman temples with Poosaris given way to 
temples with orthodox Brahmin priests ? Is it not because of 
the high premium we place on Brahminical religion ?

So then, in what way is south Indian Hinduism independent of 
North Indian ? I submit that they are in essence one, except 
that in the early years the North Indians did most of the 
contributions while in the post - Buddhist and Jaina revivals, 
the South Indians contributed the most to it.


Post Script
==========
Vishnu made a cryptic remark that the monotheistic religions - 
he mentioned Islam in particular - have oppressed women the 
most. I would appreciate more information on this, since I am 
unaware of anything worse than the sati and the child 
marriage that the British banned, or the denial of education
 under Holy Writ until the colonial period or the wife burning 
that goes on in India even today. 

Another correction to the SCI posting is the statement that 
Valluvar was the first to propound vegetarianism. This actually 
goes back to Gautama and Mahavira of the 5th century BC in 
India and, contemporaneously, Pythagoras in Greece. It is 
considered likely that Valluvar was a first century AD follower 
of the fifth century BC Mahavira.


=========================
==============
There was message from Vicky of UMass on the above topic.

I wish to comment only on one aspect of it. In referring to a Padma
Subramaniam, the impression was given that she went to Australia and
wrote something on Tamil being connected to the aboriginal language
of Australia.

I do not know this lady. But to be fair to her, it must be
recognized that she could have written on the basis of the vast
body of research available on the connexion and not necessarily
from merely listening to some songs.

The Negritos from whom we Tamils are partly descended (said to be
an eighth of us roughly by some anthropologists) are of the same the
racial stock of the aboriginals of Australia. It is considered
established that an essential ingredient of the caste system
was provided by this culture. This is the idea that ones spirit
goes into any object on which one works. Thus, if I, a Sudra, cook
something, and a high caste fellow eats it, my low-caste spirit in the
food might get into him.

For further connexions, read the Tamil sangam texts and compare the
culture of the Tamils from certain regions with those of the
Australian aboriginals.


P.S.: Negrito = Short version of the Negro.


===========

RESPONSE TO MY REJOINDER FROM VISHNU
=====================================
Subj:   From SCI

Return-path: <mvishnu@csg.uwaterloo.ca>

Dear Netters

Here is the response to Kumarakulasinghe by Ajay Shah in SCI.



>There is a lot of anger on the part of Tamils in their being considered dark
>by the Sinhalese. This is a result of the strong influence hinduism
>has on even Christian Tamils such as Jeevan Hoole.


[stuff deleted]


>Obviously sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander.
>
>Dark skinned and short
>Sereno A. Barr Kumarakulasinghe


I suppose you would say that the discrimination based
on color in the United States and South Africa
(predominantly christian countries) and Europe
is also due to the evil effect of
Hinduism on Christianity.

Please understand, Indian philosophies believe that
no one book is perfect, and any religious or social
ideology is ever evolving/ever changing.  So if there
is a verse in any Hindu book, which indicates any
castist or racial segregation, we as modern Hindus
do not adhere to it.



Ajay Shah


=====================================================

It took me a while to reply in detail.
Well let me explain the reasons for the stance taken.
I for one happen to think seperatism would not be favorable to (me)
for reason arguable on the basis of discrimination. The place comparable
would be TN and discrimination appears to be strife there. A seperate
state would be equivalent to TN and may end up being part of Greater TN.
The Sinhalese on the whole are a easygoing lot other than for some 
politicians. Actually some of the most rabid anti-tamils have being those
whose immediate ancestery was of South Indian origin. (K. M. P Rajaratna
of JVP (not Rohan Wijeweeras party)  and our beloved Cyril Matthew). Is it
possible that they were running scared of discrimination by upper caste 
Tamils on the basis of caste.
Let me recount a story which I have told many times. A friend of mine (A
sinhalese dhoby caste) and me were invited to a wedding in Jaffna. We were
at the wedding for 1 night. All the times meals were served for myself and 
my friend in a different house though other guests ate in the wedding house.
It turned out the reason being that the sinhalese guy was a washer caste and
would contaminate? the wedding meal.!!. That was the day I decided that
I would be staunchly against seperatism for state where these type of Tamils
would be in control.
Discrimination on the basis of skin color. I just posted an article on this.
The reason that I argued with you was that It appeared that from the tone
of your articles that you resented being a called a sudra and appeared to
uphold hinduism etc.
On a previous article about the sinhalese Kings and they being of a seperate
entity it might be worthwile reading Ancient Jaffna by Mudlr C Rasanayagam
Everymans 1926. This goes to argue that the Sinhala Kings and The Jaffna Kings
were of the same heritage. I meant to reply to that at length but did not find
the time. Most of it would have been from the above. You should be able to
get it on a inter library loan.
Barr Kum